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Poll
is anyone even reading this crap
yes
0%
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no
50%
 50%  [ 1 ]
maybe
50%
 50%  [ 1 ]
rs needs to stop drinking
0%
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Total Votes : 2


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Red ShifterOffline
Post subject: Gametype Discussion: Siege in theoretical Tribes game  PostPosted: May 15, 2018 - 09:13 PM
More Unbearable by the Hour


Joined: Aug 05, 2002
Posts: 1778
Location: beyond the edge of the earth
Status: Offline
this post dedicated to the memory of zengoat

Siege is not the gametype that most people want in 2018. Losing everything in 30 seconds after a slow and boring 20 minute failure is probably the worst experience someone can have in an FPS, and is very likely to make people quit it outright.

If Siege wants to exist in 2018, it needs to take some pointers from games like TF2 (Control Points is applied Siege with some CnH thrown in). That is,

- More clear display of objectives with TF2-style overlay. Look at maps like cp_gravelpit (accomplish two objectives to attack the last objective). Maybe add arrows to that design to direct people what can be attacked after what is done. Don't make it too complex.

- No endless repairing of generators. For a map like Silent Storm, where all the generators are super spread out, keeping a generator down for 15 seconds without anyone repairing it should "capture" it and lock in its destruction, releasing the forcefields around the base it was protecting.

- No pointless generators meant to slow down the offense at the start. Just give defense a setup time and spawn the offense closer.

- TF2-style time. 5 minutes to do a thing, up to 5 minutes awarded if you do some of the things, or something like that. Please for the love of god no overtime (wait, am I writing this to Archetype or to Hi-Rez?).

- Offense should have TF2-style wave spawning to give defense time to recover, as well as allow more offense to attack the base at once.

- No backdoors. Just... no. Slipping in and winning the game for yourself (not for your team) because you knew some information nobody else did is the greatest feeling in the world to maybe 1 person on the server, and nobody else.

Upon reading this list back, Siege loses a lot of its charm if you try to make it palatable. Screw it. Just make it round-based with both teams playing O/D at the same time (like Warfare) and be done with it. If we wanted Siege in 2018, we'd still be playing on the pond.

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Last edited by Red Shifter on Jun 09, 2018 - 10:24 PM; edited 1 time in total
 
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FireFrenzy
Post subject:   PostPosted: May 23, 2018 - 01:32 PM
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Joined: Aug 05, 2002
Posts: 2194
Location: Canada
Quote:
Siege is not the gametype that most people want in 2018.

Games aren't even the virtual experience most people want in 2018, so you've got a bigger problem to solve first. But let's imagine a magical gaming utopia where skinner boxes, gambling simulators, and microtransaction platforms haven't displaced them and where Midair--in this wacky timeline, not a stillborn cardboard cutout of an orphaned game that is somehow less likely to make a dent on the industry than the last two failed attempts at it--has a healthy, growing community large enough to sustain development of new content. I'm getting chills just thinking about it!

Quote:
Losing everything in 30 seconds after a slow and boring 20 minute failure is probably the worst experience someone can have in an FPS, and is very likely to make people quit it outright.

I think what you're describing here is not some undesired side effect, but siege's defining feature.

I still remember that intoxicating whiplash where the pandemonium of siege, the crash of mortars, discs, mines, and grenades constantly detonating; the interior base lights tied to who-knows-which generators flashing on and off like some wartime disco; the chaos of trying to plug that one crucial hole in your defense, or exploit it in theirs; or racing to repair a generator to the music of a teammate shouting "Repair our generator!" again and again until spam protection inevitably thwarts his fifth, and most helpful, attempt to bark it, all meet in an abrupt silence. "Game over". You did it. Or they did it. But it ended in a fucking flash. And not because some meter filled up or petered out*, not because a group of players aimlessly loitered in an area for some arbitrary length of time, but because players up and down the lines of both teams failed or succeeded in their roles in just the right configuration at just the right time to end the game. That level of constant tension, where the game can end at any moment, and player agency, where any player can make it happen, should make most team-based games green with envy. For me, you can't have siege without that. For me, that is siege.

Can it produce moments of frustration? Sure, but without them the victories would never be so sweet. Water down the experence and it would feel empty on either side of the win.

*Maps like Patience aside, which I think were anathema to the formula but fun in their own way.

Quote:
- More clear display of objectives with TF2-style overlay.

Agreed, but I think you'd struggle to find someone against improving the interface.

Quote:
- No endless repairing of generators.

Assuming a new version of siege would even employ generators as an objective, this would defeat their purpose. The generator serves as the gametype's only flexible objective. Either team can "capture" it and capture it back, with aysemmetric requirements to do so. You can always adjust repair times or health values to fine tune the difficulty for either team to make it theirs. In places where generators were used as one-offs in T2 it was for want of an objective type that could not be flipped back but also didn't end the game.

Quote:
- No pointless generators meant to slow down the offense at the start.

Setting aside the fact that you asked for the exact opposite in your last point, I agree. It comes down to better map design, though.

Quote:
- TF2-style time.

This one's tough. On one hand, earning every second of time you'll eventually have on offense is very rewarding and gives meaning to the timer. On the other, if they blazed through your defense in record speed, what chance do you really have? Is that siege-tension(TM) still there or is round two just a lame duck?

Quote:
- Offense should have TF2-style wave spawning to give defense time to recover, as well as allow more offense to attack the base at once.

I think I like this, but it runs the risk of making every wave feel like an additional round of the map instead of a continuation of the current one. I think its success would live or die on map design and the intervals between waves.

Quote:
- No backdoors.

Again, I think this comes down to map design. I really like the idea of offense having multiple win conditions, but you're right, one of them probably shouldn't pend on some sneaky snake singlehandedly usurping all the map's objectives.



Dedicated to the memory of hcats. He's fine, but he's very forgettable.

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VernaOffline
Post subject:   PostPosted: Jun 07, 2018 - 04:41 PM
demi-god


Joined: Aug 16, 2002
Posts: 569
Location: Ohio
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Well since Midair is already dead, does it matter?

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